I’ve been thinking about this a lot over the course of the trial of Dominique Pelicot and his fellow accused: what would a woman do to an unconscious man if she thought no-one would find out?
Excellent piece, Anna. I didn't know about the Marina Abramovic performance and I'm appalled that men simply thought that hurting her would be acceptable because after all she had invited people to do what they wanted. That says a lot of what men and women prioritise when given free will to act without consequence. And while it's not all men, it's tiring for us women to also have to carry the burden of making sure the good ones don't feel offended by our complains about the bad ones. It's 2024 (almost 2025), time for the men to do that work for themselves and stop hiding behind excuses. It shouldn't be on women to prove that not all men are rotten, but the fact that they collectively haven't taken action to prove us wrong, to call each other out, to call the police when someone invites them to rape their drugged wife it's, once more, very telling of what each of us chooses to do of our own free will.
yes, exactly Cristina, it is disappointing, and disappointing that when we do the work they pop their heads up and say 'now, now... not all men'. The Marina Abramovic performance was clearly to establish exactly that, I guess she is not surprised by this Pelicot story, but she was deeply disturbed by what happened to her for months afterwards. She obviously had expected men to be kinder, to choose to give her pleasure over pain. Instead they revealed what gave them pleasure - her pain.
Exactly. When i leave the house to walk and someone says “be careful”. Are they warning me against lions or bears or the old lady around the corner? NO, it is a warning that a random MAN could cause me harm. Men are the natural predators to women and i have not seen one article concerning this trial by one of the good men. Instead of standing up the good ones rest knowing they will be tucked in if found asleep.
Well, I for one have been vocal for a long time. When anyone asks "Why have you never married?" I say "why would I want to be treated as a second class citizen in my own home?"
It's amazing I've never received any push back, from women or men.
So... it's not a discussion.. where is the intellectual engagement then?
Men must change but don't include them... it is getting men on your side that furthered feminism...it is getting whites on side that furthered civil rights.
This thread should be full of men engaged and fuming.. ideally.. but no.. its a victims roundtable.
I came back to the thread looking for any comments from men, in the hopes of finding a male perspective understanding and wanting to take some responsibility. Not responsibility for a personal act but for the violent men that are out there. And hoping for a willingness to hear us and understand. But i found Jonathan and his defensiveness and it made me sad.
David Walsh, the Tasmanian man who built and runs MONA there, had a birthday party where he had a live animal in a cage on every dining table of guests, where they were served that food...as in a chicken, a baby lamb etc. He's a vegan, but it was to make people (animal eaters) think about what they were eating by displaying it right under their nose.
So perhaps that was MA's point here too.
I find it unsurprising that you chose to try to flip the narrative with your comment, rather than comment on the article and it's contents. You pretty much proved her point (unless you made another comment which I haven't seen.)
I challenged David Walsh on his dinner party when I saw him in the street. He said "are you a vegan?" I said "I'm a vegetarian ". He said "We'll you're a fucken hypocrite so fuck off".
I realised I was and it was not many months later I dumped dairy too because hypocrites are the worst.
It's not about men's feelings. The point is that women do not need to prove that not all men are rotten. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
These men went looking for such an encounter, they are a particular demographic. I believe almost all men who stumble on an unconscious woman does not do anything other than help her. Women cannot say any different.
Men object because it is about stoking hatred of men generally. It is about the relationship between the sexes becoming hostile in general. Young men will pick up on this disgust and contempt they are treated with. Meanwhile some women will take expedient measures if they believe they are fighting a disease or a toxic Other and not individual human beings. I know of feminist groups on secure group chats that attack men just for cheating. The process by which they prove his guilt for thousands of group chat members is by entrapment. This process can take years of subjecting him to an abusive relationship with a woman who is an activist, while other female activists either harass him or make advances on him. They drug him as well. I was asked as a barman to drug men. His mental health deteriorates so that the process of the 'trial' is the punishment. We need to respect rule of law, and the principle that everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
There is nothing in this article that stokes hatred of men. And frankly, every woman has had AT LEAST one experience, as a child or as an adult, with an adult male ignoring her bodily autonomy.
In many cases, by transferring their disgust at individual acts, perpetrated by certain individuals, to roughly half the population on the basis of sex.
The men who raped Gisèle Pelicot have been found guilty. I do not know why they did not all get 15 years. The judicial proceedings have demonstrated they are to blame.
It is not right to expend any energy blaming other men, or men generally.
Expending energy or emotion is not any good unless it does some good.
So by your logic, once something has happened and an action taken against that something, there should be no further conversation to ensure those things do not happen again elsewhere. Feel like history isn’t on your side here, man.
Did you even read the article? 72 men raped her. 72 men couldn’t be bothered to make sure she was consenting but just took that monster’s word for it. They were even neighbors and acquaintances so yeah why should ANY woman just assume that any particular man is safe?
Nope. You are trying to gaslight sweetie. It’s my response to YOUR callous and self centered comments. I also read what you had to say about yourself and yeah sounds like you were being called out as a creep in real life
"lol" is a childish and callous response to a report that people are being abused and drugged. This is not just being 'called out', it is abuse, and you are blaming the victim.
It is important to know where you stand on these issues so that you can apply what you think is justice in all cases to all people.
Disagree entirely, on so many levels. It is good that you read this piece—try seeing things from a woman’s perspective. Keep seeking to educate yourself.
I am worried yes. What should I take away from this article which might help prevent any more instances of rape? It is a serious problem, but there are different ways of treating this problem than the way this article treats the problem.
What a weirdo. So confident in your shiiittty “not my problem unless it impacts my ability to get sex” attitude. You know why you aren’t getting any? Because your personality stinks from a mile away.
Except for the statistically small but not zero case of the random female teacher that has sex with a minor male student, yeah that quote holds up.
At first I read the article to mean 'every man is a rapist'. But now I think it's more about that every woman has to assume that every man is a rapist, to protect themselves?
These rapists--the 80 plus -- were recruited online. If a person, female, had an icon of the manopshere, let's say an individual with the initials A.T. unconscious, and they went online to recruit woman to come over and do as they please, would she get zero responses? Doubt it.
But wow I gotta think she wouldn't get 80.
But regardless, men don't have to walk around afraid that 'everywoman' would rape them if unconscious. Even given the existence of Jeffery Dalmer, most men probably don't walk around worried about being raped by other men.
Yes, I am arguing against the point the article was making.
You make a dogmatic claim without reference to what I am arguing, or anyone else here in the comments. People are genuinely concerned about the deleterious effects on women's health and our ability to live together if most women think all men are rapists or potential rapists... and thus already deserving of abuse and punishment. Caring who has actually done wrong, and who not, is just.
Wait, so we are side-stepping the women getting raped, trampling over their bodies, to get to the men whose feelings are hurt by women not being able to tell from looking at them who is going to harm us and who isn’t?
I’m not sure this thread is the right place for you.
I wish we could tell by looking at someone who is going to harm us and who isn't. I default to everyone wants to harm me until they prove otherwise. I am a male. It would be so much more pleasant to live without this fear of violence. I'm 6 foot and 180lbs and have a lifetime of experience with street fighting. I can't imagine what it's like for people without my, let's say, training to live in this violent world. I'm in fight (defensively) mode 24/7. It's exhausting.
Poor baby. Girls—put aside your imagined trauma and let’s have a round of applause for poor 6-ft-180-trained-street-fighter. I think he mistook this page for a personals ad.
I’ve read through all the comments and I’ve been thinking through your responses for some time. To start with my name can be misleading so just to be clear, I’m a woman. In my responses to Anna’s essay I have said how I genuinely want to have this conversation with men too.
This thread is not a philosophical debate. People, mainly women, are expressing their justified anger, pain and grief at their lived experiences of men not being safe, and our difficulty in knowing who we can trust.
My first experience of a man behaving inappropriately (a close relative exposed their genitals) happened when I was 5. Over 50 years later I have of course encountered men who haven’t hurt me, or behaved inappropriately, but they are genuinely in the minority.
But let’s take a different view point briefly. Last night I read a report in the news of a 19 man being raped, in my home town, by two men, who in broad daylight trapped this young man in a alley way and raped him.
Are we still meant to apply your argument to this case, or to all the other cases of men who rape men? Should we tell him that by speaking out about being raped will make other men feel bad and risk making the problem worse?
Are we meant to not listen to this 19 year old or the other men and boys who have been abused and raped by men, (and yes women do abuse, hurt and murder babies, boys and men, but statistically, significantly less). Should we not raise concerns about this being a crime committed by men, because of how it makes other men feel? What about the case of the gay Syrian man reported in the UK news this week who was brutally raped in his country by men?
This is not a particular, isolated demographic being discussed.
I could list for you the ages and professions of the men I knew who have treated me inappropriately and made me feel very unsafe across my life. They would be similar to the professions of the men who have been charged and imprisoned in this case.
To suggest that sharing our personal experiences will make the issue worse, because it makes men feel bad, is to my interpretation just another way of making those hurt, abused and too often murdered by predominantly men, responsible for what happens to them; to us.
This isn’t as another man has commented on here and in a Note attached to a Re-stack , a ‘roundtable of victims’. It’s an opportunity to listen, ask questions, engage, and ideally have conversations with other men who are appalled by what this case has revealed. Men are the solution. Could that not be seen as a positive by them, or is this an issue of collective guilt, shame, unintentional collusion or confusion about what consent actually is that’s keeping them silent and defensive?
I suggest you talk to women you know. Ask any of them if they feel safe around men - and what they do to keep themselves as safe as they can. How threatened do you think a man needs to feel in a room full of women. Try not at all. How threatened do you think a woman needs to feel in a room full of men. Always on her guard, never relaxing for a minute, no sense of safety, no way to tell if she will be ok at the end of the experience. Men live in another world where there is no constant threat to their health and safety. Women are never safe - unless they are in women only spaces. You have no idea how differently women feel and behave when they can actually relax and feel safe. You's be shocked by the difference between what is 'normal' for men and what is 'normal' for women. If you cared to actually understand what the article is about. This is NOT about men who feel uncomfortable with the fallout of what other men have done. This is about the very real consequences for women. Consequences that a patriarchal system compounds and worsens. This is NOT about a dogmatic claim. This is about lived reality for women.
"People" are genuinely concerned about our ability to live together if most women think all men are potential rapists? You mean MEN are concerned.
Women have ALWAYS assumed that most men are potential rapists. This is nothing new, and certainly not because of social media. Your mother, your grandmother, your g-g-g-grandmother knew to fear most men. They knew that enough men would hurt them if given the chance that they couldn't trust men as a group, though they might trust individual men. There is no new "division". It's always been there, since the first man raised a hand to the first woman. What is new is that women as a collective group are finally able to say "enough!"
And it's men who have done the dividing, because they created the fear in the first place. It's *men's* job to fix that division, to take away that fear, and mostly what I hear from them is a deafening silence.
I think the Gisèle Pelicot case demonstrates that more men are capable of rape than most people are willing to admit. That is not all this Substack article is saying. The article you linked above is alarming. No I had not read it, which surprised because I had read others. I would need to read about the study to comment. Some studies have been criticized in the past. Generally speaking, of course the article reports something to worry about. However, I would want to know the response rate of students and why the sample size was only 86.
I guess they stopped at 86 at that study because if it had been a bigger number, it wouldn't have changed the results. Which is why we women are constantly worried about. You are glaringly failing to acknowledge the anxiety, insecurity and plain fear of women living in a world where we don't know who can harm us, who usually are the people we trust the most and expect the least so I hope you'll excuse us if we incidentally hurt men who seem nice in order to protect ourselves. And yet we still are able to love the men in our lives. I can't see that happening on the other side and this is what the article Anna has so eloquently written is about.
This blew me away. But not surprised. These university students i would dare to guess come from the Bret Kavanaugh school of binge drinking and drunken frat parties. Its a culture within a culture.
Brilliant piece, especially the conclusion, complete with a glass of water.
The fact that you're getting "not all men" in response as well as suggestions of what women can do to hold men responsible is clarifying the notion that women are beyond tired of discussing atrocities and being told that the case is an exception, there are more good men than bad men, and here's how women can dissuade the bad ones. The fact that Dominique Pelicot rues the day he got caught because he wishes everything was still nice, as it was (you know, nice, like taking your wife to doctor's appointments regarding her memory loss and pelvic pain and pretending you're not poisoning and gang raping her) and that he has repeatedly asked for forgiveness as if that is a reasonable request in this scenario shows that he has learned nothing, so why would we think anyone else would take accountability?
As a man, a husband, and a father of a beautiful daughter, I just have no words in response to this. As a former attorney, I cannot fathom the range of sentencing. It seems, almost, an act of forgiveness, which is expressly Not the purview of the court. The court, even in France, is bound to find and mete out Justice. In this case, you're right, the court has failed miserably. The husband here should have been found guilty of 50 counts of rape. Each of the men ought to have been found similarly guilty of multiple counts by way of being part of a cabal.
Rape (as in unlawful penetration) should be one sentence. If there is violence on top of that, it should be another sentence. Perhaps then men would realise that rapists are not just the strangers waiting for you down a dark alley, they can also be the man you get into bed beside each night.
I felt 'shock' AS I recognised it as the most plausible ending as soon as reading. A very strange feeling to feel shock and 'oh right, of course.' And quite a bit sad. Powerful. Thank you for writing it.
Tell me again why the death penalty isn’t an appropriate sentence for rapists? Tell me why we should ever let a rapist keep their instrument of assault? Bc I believe if every rape was punishable by death or castration, then teaching humans not to perpetuate sexual violence would be a serious conversation.
The reason that men get away with rape is that we live in a patriarchy. The sexual availability of women is at the core of this system of society. Until a few hundred years ago a rapist paid the father or husband of the woman he had raped, or she had to marry her rapist because she was spoiled for anyone else. Even when a raped woman began to be seen as the aggrieved party she had to prove it by having a number of male witnesses and report it within hours. Even now many men feel aggrieved when they can’t just have any woman they want, although the truth is that they pretty much can, as rape is almost an unpunished crime, still on the statute books to keep women quiet.
Because we decided to treat sex as not a big deal. That's why. If you treat sex as some sorf of intimate sport, which only requires consent, then rape can't be a serious offence unless it's violent. Like bones broken violent. If you pretend there is no shame in showing your body to strangers, then strangers looking at you naked without your consent can't be considered a crime at all. If our bodies are not sacred, if selling them is just another job, then rape is just an unlawful possession of property. Nothing more. Those judges live in our society, they hold the same values. They wouldn't give long term sentence for someone who drove a car without owners knowledge and bruised it some. They would give a fine and maybe a year or two, if the car was expensive and rare.
We as a culture degraded ourselves to the level of speaking machines and now we are horrified to be treated like things? We need to grow up. Time for teenage rebellion is over.
As Biden demonstrated to us with his latest commutations of death sentences for murderers, not even murder should be punished by death. And neither should rape.
As many people are having trouble understanding following the murder of the healthcare executive, murder is always wrong. And, just as much, rape is always wrong.
Great writing Anna. It’s to the point, not overly fussy, clear and direct. As for the point you are making and the question you are asking, I agree. Most women would simply make the man comfortable, care for him, be mindful of his welfare. They wouldn’t rape him. Maybe the presence of estrogen rather than testosterone is the key, or maybe it’s just something deeply set within the female psyche that our instinct when confronted with a vulnerable person, is to care rather than take advantage? Or maybe it’s both? As for the law on these matters, we have to remember that laws were written (in it’s first incarnation) by men, for men, and remained that way for a long time. Sadly, I don’t believe the law (and therefore, justice) will ever be equal for women, or at least, not in practice anyway. What a law says and how it is interpreted (by male judges) are two entirely different things. This woman (who could have been any one of us) is a modern day hero with a heavyweight story. She has conducted herself with such grace and poise in the face of stomach churning degradation. All hail Madame Pelicot!
Indeed, what is it in our male psyche that says it’s ok to rape an unconscious woman?
A drunk woman for that matter?
Why would you want to?
It is such a revolting idea.
This sense of entitlement to a woman’s body.
Forcing yourself on, into someone. Who is not active and willing participant of any sex. Plundering and invading. Is it all about dominating, power and control?
Is it because you can’t have sex with the women you want, so you conspire with another sexual predator to rape his wife in secret while he watches and films it all.
These men are messed up and what if terrifying is that they are Mr Everyman rapists, who will rape given the right opportunity.
I don't think it's biological. Rape culture is everywhere - boys learn it from a young age. It just takes roots (or doesn't) in different ways depending on other personality factors. I am not convinced it wouldn't be reversed in a Matriarchy. But we live in a Patriarchy or at least our culture is still heavily influenced by it.
Men are total opportunists, we have a powerful ability to see an opportunity and capitalise on it very quickly. We are very visually driven.
A very useful hunter gatherer skill.
We also have a single minded obsessive ability to focus on a target, a mark, and literally ignore everything else. Tunnel vision.
We also have to the ability to set out create opportunities, concoct or contrive a situation that we can and will fully exploit.
A staged and fixed or limited variables hunt to improve our chances of success. We scheme, plan and manipulate in great detail. Next we conspire with our mates and buddies, to share the spoils of the hunt making us more powerful still.
In the hunt, you, it, have become the mark, the obsession to be tracked and stalked with every fibre of his being. The male gaze, sizing you up in every way.
Hunting is very intoxicating, there is a real thrill and high generated and I can see how if it involved any sexual element, opportunity, it could escalate extremely quickly in a profoundly powerful and toxic way.
Power, control, domination, sexual high and violence all mixed together. Now that’s got to be messing with your brain chemistry.
I can see how porn has twisted all our minds and attitudes to sex by mining, or should I say raping, boys and girls and men and women, especially girls and women’s bodies of all sizes, shapes, ages and races everywhere at an industrial scale for the male gazes wanking pleasure and profit.
I only recently learned how porn is heavily programming and conditioning girls and women on what is expected as normal sex acts all directed towards male desire including choking as porn gets more and more extreme diving deeply into S&M sadism and normalising it all via a click on your phone.
Porn is f..ked and it’s messing with us all.
Now that is some super powerful programming, conditioning and brainwashing.
I feel the brutal answer is we are not typically preyed upon sexually constantly by all men of any age all the time. I have been preyed upon once that I know of, a male remedial massage that went too far and in ways I did not ask for or want.
We do not live in fear of any woman at any time wanting to take advantage of us, the male gaze, hurt us or even rape us.
We don’t feel it, see it, live it.
Not our, my problem.
Thus, what problem?
We men don’t have very active imaginations for others, for ourselves, sure, way too much most of the time. Empathy for others is not strong in most men and in men with higher psychopathic traits it can be missing all together.
I once resisted a female friend’s sexual advances as it was getting very mutually handsey both ways, and I did and do find her very attractive and I realised in my resistance of her advances that she could not make me have sex with her no matter how hard she tries.
I know on the other hand I as a male could have swapped the drunken desire situation and forced myself on her.
I was more concerned about the next day and the longer term as I liked her and valued her as a friend. Sex complicates everything and I was not prepared to go that far and mess my friendship up. That and I am in a strong long term monogamous relationship.
Getting back to your question about why so few men talk about it, having wives and daughters, well men don’t talk.
I am writing a response to another piece on this very issue atm and will link to it in my next response below.
Thankyou very much for taking the time to respond. Have subscribed and followed you and am looking forward to hearing more from you, an honest male perspective with understanding and empathy for women. Nice.
An extraordinary, withering, devastating piece of brilliant writing. I am particularly prone to visceral responses to descriptions such as these, and I am often rendered silent by them; I grew up a stutterer as a result. Someone below mentioned the need for a trigger warning, and while I absolutely understand the necessity for some, simply beginning the piece with Pelicot's name was enough. Some things are just ineffable -- they are too much for language to capture -- but you gave us clear words without a blip or a stutter. Pelicot is every woman who has lived with the unthinkable, and the possibility of the unimaginable; are the men every man? I do not know the answer to that. I am lucky to have had loving, kind, and gentle men in my life; I have also had the polar opposite. And I have often wondered about the thinness of the veil between them.
We’d like to think that there are good men and bad men and women just have to avoid the bad. This story demonstrates that is a myth, that even “good” men in the right setting will behave very badly. The violence against women crosses all boundaries and continues in 2024 as it has for centuries. The evolution of man in society doesn’t seem to include how women are viewed and how men are “purely incapable” of not viewing women through a lens of superiority, dominance, privilege and ownership.
We do know that there are men among us who have risen above these base instincts. But the definition of “a man” is still littered with violence and hate. We are living in a tsunami sized backlash created because women want autonomy, equality, equity and freedom and men unable to grasp those things have amplified the subjugation of women. I’m 70 and these are the most radical times of hate I’ve ever seen.
Let’s “save the unborn” by pretending women are incapable idiots. When women aren’t shrinking from fear, let’s add new penalties of jail, giving your rapist custody of the child… we’ve now seen an unhinged, evil state legislatures propose the DEATH PENALTY for women who have an abortion. All of these anti-abortion laws exist for one reason - to control women.
What would I do to an incapacitated man asleep on my bed? Be kind, be considerate and don’t prejudge and take revenge.Even if your personal history and your body and mind screams for retribution.
But let’s just say, for arguments sake, that a woman shoved something pretty filthy up his ar*e with some violence, for a reasonable amount of time, and infected him with some pretty horrible disease. Do you think this wicked fictional woman would get three, five, fifteen years?
Well, despite what you believe, we don’t seem to have much in the way of precedence for this sort of crime, so my suspicion that she would get life imprisonment can’t be checked. Meanwhile, these men who did the same got three, five, and occasionally fifteen years, maybe because it is relatively common.
This is the sad reality. A woman poses zero threat to an unconscious man. Maybe there are a tiny percentage of instances where that wouldn’t be true, but we all know that by and large you can make this generalization and be correct. And sadly, the reverse is not true. And my god for the men on this thread saying “not all men” yes, we know. But far too many of you. You solve it. We have been trying and we are exhausted and angry and sad. You try.
There have been so many times in my life, professionally and personally when men, women and children have fallen asleep. In each case I’ve covered them, made sure they were safe, sometimes tucking a cushion beneath their head to support it, then let them sleep, watching but trying not to intrude until they woke. I can’t begin to imagine doing anything else.
I saw that the one man who has HIV was given a longer sentence but most sentences were too short.
This is such a powerful piece Anna.
Natalie Shotter, sweet, beautiful little Sara Shariff - both should have been safe. People and the Social Services knew Sara was being hurt by her father.
It’s almost more shocking (if that’s possible), what men will do when given consent, as in Marina Abramovic’s art, and then running alongside this there is the story of social media influencer who had sex with 101 of her male ‘fan’s and is aiming for 400 next time. I’m not implying any judgement by mentioning her, I genuinely don’t understand her choice, especially when the sentencing in Giselle’s case was all over the news.
My MA tutor was commissioned to write a book about male and female sexual fantasies. The book based on interviews with men was deemed unpublishable….
Wow Jaimie, especially to your last line. But also, you reminded me that I wanted to comment on Lily Phillips too. There is a theme, and it ain’t a pleasant one.
This was so shocking and disturbing to read, yet written in such an effective, stirring way.
I didn't know about that Marina Abramovic exhibition. The look in her eyes is heartbreaking. I didn't know about Natalie Shotter either, how utterly horrific and desperately sad for her children. The story of Sara Sharif is incomprehensible. Gisele Pelicot is a Heroine.
These savage, evil men got caught, and yet, so many get away with it, living a lie, pretending to be someone they're not even to their mothers, sisters, wives, and daughters. It's chilling.
As hard as it is to hear these stories, the question you ask elicits vital discussion. Strong voices and perspectives like yours must continue to be heard.
The thing is, quite a few men who seem harmless are not, in fact, harmless.
You want to know one of the things that makes me love my husband even more? He's the one who told me about this case. (He may have read it early in the European press.) Before I had even heard of it, he brought it up to express his horror and shock.
Hi Anna, thank you for this powerful piece. The line about men not caring about STDs (or only if it would uncover their deceitful behaviour) really hit home having had personal experience of this with an ex who exposed me to the dangers of being infected without any care for the consequences to me. I have shared your piece with everyone who might care to read and if it is ok with you, can I cross post it on my own stack?
Thank you for an incredible piece of writing Anna.
I’ve been lost in a sea of thoughts about the Pelicot case. I am particularly haunted by the men who arrived and left after seeing the abusive scene but didn’t alert the authorities.
The appalling Natalie Shotter case reminded me about a case I often think about. It was back in 2017 when a teenage girl was sexually assaulted by three different men within an hour as she walked home from a night out after she was spiked/drugged.
You really nail what’s at the centre of all of these hideous crimes - men see clearly vulnerable and in-need women and choose not to care for them but to violate them. It’s a sickness.
Thanks for reading, Rachel. I don’t know if you’ve seen my ‘further thoughts’ post but I did mean to mention the men who arrived and left and did nothing too. There is so much that this case contains for us women. And as for the woman walking home back in 2017, it’s just exhausting. 😔
Excellent piece, Anna. I didn't know about the Marina Abramovic performance and I'm appalled that men simply thought that hurting her would be acceptable because after all she had invited people to do what they wanted. That says a lot of what men and women prioritise when given free will to act without consequence. And while it's not all men, it's tiring for us women to also have to carry the burden of making sure the good ones don't feel offended by our complains about the bad ones. It's 2024 (almost 2025), time for the men to do that work for themselves and stop hiding behind excuses. It shouldn't be on women to prove that not all men are rotten, but the fact that they collectively haven't taken action to prove us wrong, to call each other out, to call the police when someone invites them to rape their drugged wife it's, once more, very telling of what each of us chooses to do of our own free will.
Some further thoughts on this, here: https://open.substack.com/pub/abroadbycristinacarmonaaliaga/p/not-all-men-but-always-men?r=1mr9iw&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=true
yes, exactly Cristina, it is disappointing, and disappointing that when we do the work they pop their heads up and say 'now, now... not all men'. The Marina Abramovic performance was clearly to establish exactly that, I guess she is not surprised by this Pelicot story, but she was deeply disturbed by what happened to her for months afterwards. She obviously had expected men to be kinder, to choose to give her pleasure over pain. Instead they revealed what gave them pleasure - her pain.
Hopefully something good would come out of this awful event, or that's what I want to think.
Exactly. When i leave the house to walk and someone says “be careful”. Are they warning me against lions or bears or the old lady around the corner? NO, it is a warning that a random MAN could cause me harm. Men are the natural predators to women and i have not seen one article concerning this trial by one of the good men. Instead of standing up the good ones rest knowing they will be tucked in if found asleep.
True.
Well, I for one have been vocal for a long time. When anyone asks "Why have you never married?" I say "why would I want to be treated as a second class citizen in my own home?"
It's amazing I've never received any push back, from women or men.
I am married and trust me. I am not a second class citizen in my home.
You seem to have missed my point. My comment wasn't about you, or even marriage.
Gisele Pelicot even said she thought her husband was perfect. That's my point.
Second class?
You can Stand up for yourself in marriage too.
I'm too tired to explain myself to you. Sorry. It's all just too pointless.
Someone says...?
A man usually... who knows what its all about.
Man is man's most dangerous predator...
Was about to comment the same thing.
Yes. Not antelopes or ghekkos.
This is the real world.
Shock me with the actions of men.... hah... you can't!
But I am one.. with all its baggage.
go away
"Sex differences" shouldn't make treating people with respect or basic decency optional.
With all due respect, read the room.
I just don’t think it’s the time to open that door. Not on this thread when there is so much upset.
So... it's not a discussion.. where is the intellectual engagement then?
Men must change but don't include them... it is getting men on your side that furthered feminism...it is getting whites on side that furthered civil rights.
This thread should be full of men engaged and fuming.. ideally.. but no.. its a victims roundtable.
Weird how you read that whole piece and thought the best response you could offer was ‘yeah but…women’
Do you think he really read it? I doubt it...
I came back to the thread looking for any comments from men, in the hopes of finding a male perspective understanding and wanting to take some responsibility. Not responsibility for a personal act but for the violent men that are out there. And hoping for a willingness to hear us and understand. But i found Jonathan and his defensiveness and it made me sad.
Making me angry 😠
David Walsh, the Tasmanian man who built and runs MONA there, had a birthday party where he had a live animal in a cage on every dining table of guests, where they were served that food...as in a chicken, a baby lamb etc. He's a vegan, but it was to make people (animal eaters) think about what they were eating by displaying it right under their nose.
So perhaps that was MA's point here too.
I find it unsurprising that you chose to try to flip the narrative with your comment, rather than comment on the article and it's contents. You pretty much proved her point (unless you made another comment which I haven't seen.)
I challenged David Walsh on his dinner party when I saw him in the street. He said "are you a vegan?" I said "I'm a vegetarian ". He said "We'll you're a fucken hypocrite so fuck off".
I realised I was and it was not many months later I dumped dairy too because hypocrites are the worst.
Ya can’t help yourself can you?
Exactly. No sense of common humanity. Appalling.
It's not about men's feelings. The point is that women do not need to prove that not all men are rotten. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
These men went looking for such an encounter, they are a particular demographic. I believe almost all men who stumble on an unconscious woman does not do anything other than help her. Women cannot say any different.
Men object because it is about stoking hatred of men generally. It is about the relationship between the sexes becoming hostile in general. Young men will pick up on this disgust and contempt they are treated with. Meanwhile some women will take expedient measures if they believe they are fighting a disease or a toxic Other and not individual human beings. I know of feminist groups on secure group chats that attack men just for cheating. The process by which they prove his guilt for thousands of group chat members is by entrapment. This process can take years of subjecting him to an abusive relationship with a woman who is an activist, while other female activists either harass him or make advances on him. They drug him as well. I was asked as a barman to drug men. His mental health deteriorates so that the process of the 'trial' is the punishment. We need to respect rule of law, and the principle that everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
https://interpocula.substack.com/about
There is nothing in this article that stokes hatred of men. And frankly, every woman has had AT LEAST one experience, as a child or as an adult, with an adult male ignoring her bodily autonomy.
I invite you to go one step back… how do women’s “disgust and contempt” originate?
In many cases, by transferring their disgust at individual acts, perpetrated by certain individuals, to roughly half the population on the basis of sex.
You seem to be spending a lot of energy blaming women for assuming ‘all men’ and not enough energy in men who rape women.
I am not sure what to make of this sentence.
The men who raped Gisèle Pelicot have been found guilty. I do not know why they did not all get 15 years. The judicial proceedings have demonstrated they are to blame.
It is not right to expend any energy blaming other men, or men generally.
Expending energy or emotion is not any good unless it does some good.
So by your logic, once something has happened and an action taken against that something, there should be no further conversation to ensure those things do not happen again elsewhere. Feel like history isn’t on your side here, man.
Did you even read the article? 72 men raped her. 72 men couldn’t be bothered to make sure she was consenting but just took that monster’s word for it. They were even neighbors and acquaintances so yeah why should ANY woman just assume that any particular man is safe?
lol… something tells me that you got called out for bad behavior. Sooooo transparent.
Nope. You are trying to gaslight sweetie. It’s my response to YOUR callous and self centered comments. I also read what you had to say about yourself and yeah sounds like you were being called out as a creep in real life
"lol" is a childish and callous response to a report that people are being abused and drugged. This is not just being 'called out', it is abuse, and you are blaming the victim.
It is important to know where you stand on these issues so that you can apply what you think is justice in all cases to all people.
WILL SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE MEN!
Disagree entirely, on so many levels. It is good that you read this piece—try seeing things from a woman’s perspective. Keep seeking to educate yourself.
You are missing the point entirely.
“deleterious effects on women's health and our ability to live together if most women think all men are rapists or potential rapists”.
But you aren’t worried about the “deleterious effects on women’s health” of actual rape? Eff off and then eff all the way
Off even further. Not surprised that you are anonymous.
I am worried yes. What should I take away from this article which might help prevent any more instances of rape? It is a serious problem, but there are different ways of treating this problem than the way this article treats the problem.
What a weirdo. So confident in your shiiittty “not my problem unless it impacts my ability to get sex” attitude. You know why you aren’t getting any? Because your personality stinks from a mile away.
They can't help it - it's all about them every second of every day...This is the problem.
Read a quote here 'not all men but always men.'.
Except for the statistically small but not zero case of the random female teacher that has sex with a minor male student, yeah that quote holds up.
At first I read the article to mean 'every man is a rapist'. But now I think it's more about that every woman has to assume that every man is a rapist, to protect themselves?
These rapists--the 80 plus -- were recruited online. If a person, female, had an icon of the manopshere, let's say an individual with the initials A.T. unconscious, and they went online to recruit woman to come over and do as they please, would she get zero responses? Doubt it.
But wow I gotta think she wouldn't get 80.
But regardless, men don't have to walk around afraid that 'everywoman' would rape them if unconscious. Even given the existence of Jeffery Dalmer, most men probably don't walk around worried about being raped by other men.
Yes, I am arguing against the point the article was making.
You make a dogmatic claim without reference to what I am arguing, or anyone else here in the comments. People are genuinely concerned about the deleterious effects on women's health and our ability to live together if most women think all men are rapists or potential rapists... and thus already deserving of abuse and punishment. Caring who has actually done wrong, and who not, is just.
Wait, so we are side-stepping the women getting raped, trampling over their bodies, to get to the men whose feelings are hurt by women not being able to tell from looking at them who is going to harm us and who isn’t?
I’m not sure this thread is the right place for you.
I wish we could tell by looking at someone who is going to harm us and who isn't. I default to everyone wants to harm me until they prove otherwise. I am a male. It would be so much more pleasant to live without this fear of violence. I'm 6 foot and 180lbs and have a lifetime of experience with street fighting. I can't imagine what it's like for people without my, let's say, training to live in this violent world. I'm in fight (defensively) mode 24/7. It's exhausting.
Poor baby. Girls—put aside your imagined trauma and let’s have a round of applause for poor 6-ft-180-trained-street-fighter. I think he mistook this page for a personals ad.
No, your way of dealing with the problem is not the only way to do it. Some people are concerned that it might do more harm than good.
I’ve read through all the comments and I’ve been thinking through your responses for some time. To start with my name can be misleading so just to be clear, I’m a woman. In my responses to Anna’s essay I have said how I genuinely want to have this conversation with men too.
This thread is not a philosophical debate. People, mainly women, are expressing their justified anger, pain and grief at their lived experiences of men not being safe, and our difficulty in knowing who we can trust.
My first experience of a man behaving inappropriately (a close relative exposed their genitals) happened when I was 5. Over 50 years later I have of course encountered men who haven’t hurt me, or behaved inappropriately, but they are genuinely in the minority.
But let’s take a different view point briefly. Last night I read a report in the news of a 19 man being raped, in my home town, by two men, who in broad daylight trapped this young man in a alley way and raped him.
Are we still meant to apply your argument to this case, or to all the other cases of men who rape men? Should we tell him that by speaking out about being raped will make other men feel bad and risk making the problem worse?
Are we meant to not listen to this 19 year old or the other men and boys who have been abused and raped by men, (and yes women do abuse, hurt and murder babies, boys and men, but statistically, significantly less). Should we not raise concerns about this being a crime committed by men, because of how it makes other men feel? What about the case of the gay Syrian man reported in the UK news this week who was brutally raped in his country by men?
This is not a particular, isolated demographic being discussed.
I could list for you the ages and professions of the men I knew who have treated me inappropriately and made me feel very unsafe across my life. They would be similar to the professions of the men who have been charged and imprisoned in this case.
To suggest that sharing our personal experiences will make the issue worse, because it makes men feel bad, is to my interpretation just another way of making those hurt, abused and too often murdered by predominantly men, responsible for what happens to them; to us.
This isn’t as another man has commented on here and in a Note attached to a Re-stack , a ‘roundtable of victims’. It’s an opportunity to listen, ask questions, engage, and ideally have conversations with other men who are appalled by what this case has revealed. Men are the solution. Could that not be seen as a positive by them, or is this an issue of collective guilt, shame, unintentional collusion or confusion about what consent actually is that’s keeping them silent and defensive?
you prove our point by sticking your opinion in where no one wants it...
I suggest you talk to women you know. Ask any of them if they feel safe around men - and what they do to keep themselves as safe as they can. How threatened do you think a man needs to feel in a room full of women. Try not at all. How threatened do you think a woman needs to feel in a room full of men. Always on her guard, never relaxing for a minute, no sense of safety, no way to tell if she will be ok at the end of the experience. Men live in another world where there is no constant threat to their health and safety. Women are never safe - unless they are in women only spaces. You have no idea how differently women feel and behave when they can actually relax and feel safe. You's be shocked by the difference between what is 'normal' for men and what is 'normal' for women. If you cared to actually understand what the article is about. This is NOT about men who feel uncomfortable with the fallout of what other men have done. This is about the very real consequences for women. Consequences that a patriarchal system compounds and worsens. This is NOT about a dogmatic claim. This is about lived reality for women.
"People" are genuinely concerned about our ability to live together if most women think all men are potential rapists? You mean MEN are concerned.
Women have ALWAYS assumed that most men are potential rapists. This is nothing new, and certainly not because of social media. Your mother, your grandmother, your g-g-g-grandmother knew to fear most men. They knew that enough men would hurt them if given the chance that they couldn't trust men as a group, though they might trust individual men. There is no new "division". It's always been there, since the first man raised a hand to the first woman. What is new is that women as a collective group are finally able to say "enough!"
And it's men who have done the dividing, because they created the fear in the first place. It's *men's* job to fix that division, to take away that fear, and mostly what I hear from them is a deafening silence.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/a-third-of-male-university-students-say-they-would-rape-a-woman-if-there-no-were-no-consequences-9978052.html
But they have a future in America. They can strive to be President, Attorney General or head of Health and Human Services.
I think the Gisèle Pelicot case demonstrates that more men are capable of rape than most people are willing to admit. That is not all this Substack article is saying. The article you linked above is alarming. No I had not read it, which surprised because I had read others. I would need to read about the study to comment. Some studies have been criticized in the past. Generally speaking, of course the article reports something to worry about. However, I would want to know the response rate of students and why the sample size was only 86.
I guess they stopped at 86 at that study because if it had been a bigger number, it wouldn't have changed the results. Which is why we women are constantly worried about. You are glaringly failing to acknowledge the anxiety, insecurity and plain fear of women living in a world where we don't know who can harm us, who usually are the people we trust the most and expect the least so I hope you'll excuse us if we incidentally hurt men who seem nice in order to protect ourselves. And yet we still are able to love the men in our lives. I can't see that happening on the other side and this is what the article Anna has so eloquently written is about.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/pop-psych/201601/exaggerating-with-statistics-about-rape
This blew me away. But not surprised. These university students i would dare to guess come from the Bret Kavanaugh school of binge drinking and drunken frat parties. Its a culture within a culture.
but men are rapists you fool - how many men are raped by women...
Brilliant piece, especially the conclusion, complete with a glass of water.
The fact that you're getting "not all men" in response as well as suggestions of what women can do to hold men responsible is clarifying the notion that women are beyond tired of discussing atrocities and being told that the case is an exception, there are more good men than bad men, and here's how women can dissuade the bad ones. The fact that Dominique Pelicot rues the day he got caught because he wishes everything was still nice, as it was (you know, nice, like taking your wife to doctor's appointments regarding her memory loss and pelvic pain and pretending you're not poisoning and gang raping her) and that he has repeatedly asked for forgiveness as if that is a reasonable request in this scenario shows that he has learned nothing, so why would we think anyone else would take accountability?
So depressingly true, Eileen.
As a man, a husband, and a father of a beautiful daughter, I just have no words in response to this. As a former attorney, I cannot fathom the range of sentencing. It seems, almost, an act of forgiveness, which is expressly Not the purview of the court. The court, even in France, is bound to find and mete out Justice. In this case, you're right, the court has failed miserably. The husband here should have been found guilty of 50 counts of rape. Each of the men ought to have been found similarly guilty of multiple counts by way of being part of a cabal.
Rape (as in unlawful penetration) should be one sentence. If there is violence on top of that, it should be another sentence. Perhaps then men would realise that rapists are not just the strangers waiting for you down a dark alley, they can also be the man you get into bed beside each night.
The ending. The ending is so true. And so sad to imagine as a direct comparative. Sad for our society.
I tried to imagine an alternative ending and I couldn’t.
I felt 'shock' AS I recognised it as the most plausible ending as soon as reading. A very strange feeling to feel shock and 'oh right, of course.' And quite a bit sad. Powerful. Thank you for writing it.
There really isn’t one. It wouldn’t occur to us. Thank you for such a beautifully written essay.
Tell me again why the death penalty isn’t an appropriate sentence for rapists? Tell me why we should ever let a rapist keep their instrument of assault? Bc I believe if every rape was punishable by death or castration, then teaching humans not to perpetuate sexual violence would be a serious conversation.
Agreed.
In this insane case it needs to be a mass execution of over 50 Mr Everyman rapists.
I also want to go after the other 50(?) Mr Everyman rapists that could not be identified. Sexual predator Domenique knows who they are.
Make we want to return to the rack and pull the names out of him.
The reason that men get away with rape is that we live in a patriarchy. The sexual availability of women is at the core of this system of society. Until a few hundred years ago a rapist paid the father or husband of the woman he had raped, or she had to marry her rapist because she was spoiled for anyone else. Even when a raped woman began to be seen as the aggrieved party she had to prove it by having a number of male witnesses and report it within hours. Even now many men feel aggrieved when they can’t just have any woman they want, although the truth is that they pretty much can, as rape is almost an unpunished crime, still on the statute books to keep women quiet.
100 percent on this. It absurd! Because only women could create that law and punishment. And women don’t write the laws.
So true!
Because we decided to treat sex as not a big deal. That's why. If you treat sex as some sorf of intimate sport, which only requires consent, then rape can't be a serious offence unless it's violent. Like bones broken violent. If you pretend there is no shame in showing your body to strangers, then strangers looking at you naked without your consent can't be considered a crime at all. If our bodies are not sacred, if selling them is just another job, then rape is just an unlawful possession of property. Nothing more. Those judges live in our society, they hold the same values. They wouldn't give long term sentence for someone who drove a car without owners knowledge and bruised it some. They would give a fine and maybe a year or two, if the car was expensive and rare.
We as a culture degraded ourselves to the level of speaking machines and now we are horrified to be treated like things? We need to grow up. Time for teenage rebellion is over.
As Biden demonstrated to us with his latest commutations of death sentences for murderers, not even murder should be punished by death. And neither should rape.
As many people are having trouble understanding following the murder of the healthcare executive, murder is always wrong. And, just as much, rape is always wrong.
Great writing Anna. It’s to the point, not overly fussy, clear and direct. As for the point you are making and the question you are asking, I agree. Most women would simply make the man comfortable, care for him, be mindful of his welfare. They wouldn’t rape him. Maybe the presence of estrogen rather than testosterone is the key, or maybe it’s just something deeply set within the female psyche that our instinct when confronted with a vulnerable person, is to care rather than take advantage? Or maybe it’s both? As for the law on these matters, we have to remember that laws were written (in it’s first incarnation) by men, for men, and remained that way for a long time. Sadly, I don’t believe the law (and therefore, justice) will ever be equal for women, or at least, not in practice anyway. What a law says and how it is interpreted (by male judges) are two entirely different things. This woman (who could have been any one of us) is a modern day hero with a heavyweight story. She has conducted herself with such grace and poise in the face of stomach churning degradation. All hail Madame Pelicot!
All hail indeed, Claire. Thank you for your thoughts, so true, all of them.
Indeed, what is it in our male psyche that says it’s ok to rape an unconscious woman?
A drunk woman for that matter?
Why would you want to?
It is such a revolting idea.
This sense of entitlement to a woman’s body.
Forcing yourself on, into someone. Who is not active and willing participant of any sex. Plundering and invading. Is it all about dominating, power and control?
Is it because you can’t have sex with the women you want, so you conspire with another sexual predator to rape his wife in secret while he watches and films it all.
These men are messed up and what if terrifying is that they are Mr Everyman rapists, who will rape given the right opportunity.
I don't think it's biological. Rape culture is everywhere - boys learn it from a young age. It just takes roots (or doesn't) in different ways depending on other personality factors. I am not convinced it wouldn't be reversed in a Matriarchy. But we live in a Patriarchy or at least our culture is still heavily influenced by it.
Men are total opportunists, we have a powerful ability to see an opportunity and capitalise on it very quickly. We are very visually driven.
A very useful hunter gatherer skill.
We also have a single minded obsessive ability to focus on a target, a mark, and literally ignore everything else. Tunnel vision.
We also have to the ability to set out create opportunities, concoct or contrive a situation that we can and will fully exploit.
A staged and fixed or limited variables hunt to improve our chances of success. We scheme, plan and manipulate in great detail. Next we conspire with our mates and buddies, to share the spoils of the hunt making us more powerful still.
In the hunt, you, it, have become the mark, the obsession to be tracked and stalked with every fibre of his being. The male gaze, sizing you up in every way.
Hunting is very intoxicating, there is a real thrill and high generated and I can see how if it involved any sexual element, opportunity, it could escalate extremely quickly in a profoundly powerful and toxic way.
Power, control, domination, sexual high and violence all mixed together. Now that’s got to be messing with your brain chemistry.
I can see how porn has twisted all our minds and attitudes to sex by mining, or should I say raping, boys and girls and men and women, especially girls and women’s bodies of all sizes, shapes, ages and races everywhere at an industrial scale for the male gazes wanking pleasure and profit.
I only recently learned how porn is heavily programming and conditioning girls and women on what is expected as normal sex acts all directed towards male desire including choking as porn gets more and more extreme diving deeply into S&M sadism and normalising it all via a click on your phone.
Porn is f..ked and it’s messing with us all.
Now that is some super powerful programming, conditioning and brainwashing.
I feel the brutal answer is we are not typically preyed upon sexually constantly by all men of any age all the time. I have been preyed upon once that I know of, a male remedial massage that went too far and in ways I did not ask for or want.
We do not live in fear of any woman at any time wanting to take advantage of us, the male gaze, hurt us or even rape us.
We don’t feel it, see it, live it.
Not our, my problem.
Thus, what problem?
We men don’t have very active imaginations for others, for ourselves, sure, way too much most of the time. Empathy for others is not strong in most men and in men with higher psychopathic traits it can be missing all together.
I once resisted a female friend’s sexual advances as it was getting very mutually handsey both ways, and I did and do find her very attractive and I realised in my resistance of her advances that she could not make me have sex with her no matter how hard she tries.
I know on the other hand I as a male could have swapped the drunken desire situation and forced myself on her.
I was more concerned about the next day and the longer term as I liked her and valued her as a friend. Sex complicates everything and I was not prepared to go that far and mess my friendship up. That and I am in a strong long term monogamous relationship.
Getting back to your question about why so few men talk about it, having wives and daughters, well men don’t talk.
I am writing a response to another piece on this very issue atm and will link to it in my next response below.
Thankyou very much for taking the time to respond. Have subscribed and followed you and am looking forward to hearing more from you, an honest male perspective with understanding and empathy for women. Nice.
An extraordinary, withering, devastating piece of brilliant writing. I am particularly prone to visceral responses to descriptions such as these, and I am often rendered silent by them; I grew up a stutterer as a result. Someone below mentioned the need for a trigger warning, and while I absolutely understand the necessity for some, simply beginning the piece with Pelicot's name was enough. Some things are just ineffable -- they are too much for language to capture -- but you gave us clear words without a blip or a stutter. Pelicot is every woman who has lived with the unthinkable, and the possibility of the unimaginable; are the men every man? I do not know the answer to that. I am lucky to have had loving, kind, and gentle men in my life; I have also had the polar opposite. And I have often wondered about the thinness of the veil between them.
Thank you for reading, Elissa. Your comments are so much appreciated.
We’d like to think that there are good men and bad men and women just have to avoid the bad. This story demonstrates that is a myth, that even “good” men in the right setting will behave very badly. The violence against women crosses all boundaries and continues in 2024 as it has for centuries. The evolution of man in society doesn’t seem to include how women are viewed and how men are “purely incapable” of not viewing women through a lens of superiority, dominance, privilege and ownership.
We do know that there are men among us who have risen above these base instincts. But the definition of “a man” is still littered with violence and hate. We are living in a tsunami sized backlash created because women want autonomy, equality, equity and freedom and men unable to grasp those things have amplified the subjugation of women. I’m 70 and these are the most radical times of hate I’ve ever seen.
Let’s “save the unborn” by pretending women are incapable idiots. When women aren’t shrinking from fear, let’s add new penalties of jail, giving your rapist custody of the child… we’ve now seen an unhinged, evil state legislatures propose the DEATH PENALTY for women who have an abortion. All of these anti-abortion laws exist for one reason - to control women.
What would I do to an incapacitated man asleep on my bed? Be kind, be considerate and don’t prejudge and take revenge.Even if your personal history and your body and mind screams for retribution.
Good points. And we have plenty of evidence where the negative images concerned. Even good women in the right settings will do wrong things.
But let’s just say, for arguments sake, that a woman shoved something pretty filthy up his ar*e with some violence, for a reasonable amount of time, and infected him with some pretty horrible disease. Do you think this wicked fictional woman would get three, five, fifteen years?
Well, despite what you believe, we don’t seem to have much in the way of precedence for this sort of crime, so my suspicion that she would get life imprisonment can’t be checked. Meanwhile, these men who did the same got three, five, and occasionally fifteen years, maybe because it is relatively common.
I’m sure that comment means something to somebody somewhere.
Some further thoughts I’ve added today if anyone wanted to discuss further
https://annawharton.substack.com/p/some-further-thoughts-on-my-gisele
This is the sad reality. A woman poses zero threat to an unconscious man. Maybe there are a tiny percentage of instances where that wouldn’t be true, but we all know that by and large you can make this generalization and be correct. And sadly, the reverse is not true. And my god for the men on this thread saying “not all men” yes, we know. But far too many of you. You solve it. We have been trying and we are exhausted and angry and sad. You try.
There have been so many times in my life, professionally and personally when men, women and children have fallen asleep. In each case I’ve covered them, made sure they were safe, sometimes tucking a cushion beneath their head to support it, then let them sleep, watching but trying not to intrude until they woke. I can’t begin to imagine doing anything else.
I saw that the one man who has HIV was given a longer sentence but most sentences were too short.
This is such a powerful piece Anna.
Natalie Shotter, sweet, beautiful little Sara Shariff - both should have been safe. People and the Social Services knew Sara was being hurt by her father.
It’s almost more shocking (if that’s possible), what men will do when given consent, as in Marina Abramovic’s art, and then running alongside this there is the story of social media influencer who had sex with 101 of her male ‘fan’s and is aiming for 400 next time. I’m not implying any judgement by mentioning her, I genuinely don’t understand her choice, especially when the sentencing in Giselle’s case was all over the news.
My MA tutor was commissioned to write a book about male and female sexual fantasies. The book based on interviews with men was deemed unpublishable….
Wow Jaimie, especially to your last line. But also, you reminded me that I wanted to comment on Lily Phillips too. There is a theme, and it ain’t a pleasant one.
This was so shocking and disturbing to read, yet written in such an effective, stirring way.
I didn't know about that Marina Abramovic exhibition. The look in her eyes is heartbreaking. I didn't know about Natalie Shotter either, how utterly horrific and desperately sad for her children. The story of Sara Sharif is incomprehensible. Gisele Pelicot is a Heroine.
These savage, evil men got caught, and yet, so many get away with it, living a lie, pretending to be someone they're not even to their mothers, sisters, wives, and daughters. It's chilling.
As hard as it is to hear these stories, the question you ask elicits vital discussion. Strong voices and perspectives like yours must continue to be heard.
The thing is, quite a few men who seem harmless are not, in fact, harmless.
You want to know one of the things that makes me love my husband even more? He's the one who told me about this case. (He may have read it early in the European press.) Before I had even heard of it, he brought it up to express his horror and shock.
Thank God he’s your EX!
Hi Anna, thank you for this powerful piece. The line about men not caring about STDs (or only if it would uncover their deceitful behaviour) really hit home having had personal experience of this with an ex who exposed me to the dangers of being infected without any care for the consequences to me. I have shared your piece with everyone who might care to read and if it is ok with you, can I cross post it on my own stack?
I’m sorry to hear that you’ve had that experience, of course you are welcome to cross-post.
Thank you
Thank you for an incredible piece of writing Anna.
I’ve been lost in a sea of thoughts about the Pelicot case. I am particularly haunted by the men who arrived and left after seeing the abusive scene but didn’t alert the authorities.
The appalling Natalie Shotter case reminded me about a case I often think about. It was back in 2017 when a teenage girl was sexually assaulted by three different men within an hour as she walked home from a night out after she was spiked/drugged.
You really nail what’s at the centre of all of these hideous crimes - men see clearly vulnerable and in-need women and choose not to care for them but to violate them. It’s a sickness.
Thanks for reading, Rachel. I don’t know if you’ve seen my ‘further thoughts’ post but I did mean to mention the men who arrived and left and did nothing too. There is so much that this case contains for us women. And as for the woman walking home back in 2017, it’s just exhausting. 😔
I will read now xx
Xx
It’s dumbfounding. Seriously, this much hate is finding me dumb. I can’t respond. I don’t know what to say.
Men are a mess.